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“Nice Guys” DO Finish Last

August 30, 2010

I have recently come to a conclusion: so-called “nice guys” do, indeed, finish last. And, you wanna know why? Because you can’t win a race if you never start running. The thing is “nice guys” aren’t really nice guys. That’s just what they call themselves. It’s really code and I have deciphered the code.

“Nice guys” are pansies.

That’s right — big wussy-men! Now, of course, not all nice men are pansies. But for some reason, all the pansies in the world seem to think of themselves as “nice guys.” And they feel the need to tell everyone around them that they are “nice guys” and to whimper about whatever they perceive they are getting cheated out of.

Now, please, do not get me wrong. I know that there are indeed truly nice men out there. I know quite a few (my self-appointed big-brother comes to mind — heck, my dad is a pretty good fella too). But most honestly nice men don’t feel the need to label themselves as “nice guys” in the same way that all wimps I run into label themselves as “nice guys.” Like it’s an excuse or a reason for us to pity them. Like the system is set up for them to fail and it’s not really their fault. It’s their mean boss’s fault. Or the fault of women who keep dating assholes.

But what if the system that is set up (for them to fail at) is the evolutionary process of the universe: you know survival of the fittest. The fastest, strongest, most aggressive one wins.

Adapt or die.

Swim or drown.

Hunt or starve.

Them’s the rules, and there’s a good reason for it.

The truth is, these guys aren’t actually failing because of some immutable and beautiful inner quality of “niceness” that for some unknown reason the rest of us are punishing them for. Really, these are the guys who — through inaction, indecision or incompetence — manage to finish last. And what’s really frustrating about it is that most of the time they could do something about it.

Adapt or die. And if you chose to die I don’t wanna hear about it.

Ask for a raise instead of kissing your boss‘s butt, hoping he‘ll eventually reward you all the while complaining about him to anyone who will listen. Tell a girl you like her instead of sitting around in the friend zone (you put yourself in) listening to her complain about all of the men she dates.

Swim or drown. And if you drown it’s your own fault.

The truth is, most girls don’t really like guys who are assholes. You’ve deluded yourself if you think they do. It‘s just an excuse you tell yourself so that you can feel better about doing nothing.

The truth is, you‘re scared. Or you‘re lazy. Girls like guys who pursue them. Who try to get to know them. Who ask them on dates (and have a freaking plan when they ask — wait, I’m saving that topic for a future blog). For the most part, men who don’t pursue women wind up being “just friends” or with women who are aggressive bitches.

Hunt or starve.

So, to all of you “nice guys” out there: stop with the petulant, childish pouting. Nut up. I don’t care if you’re afraid of rejection. Quit your crying and thumb-sucking. Decide what you want and then take action to get it. Yeah, you might fail. But it’s better than sitting on your ass crying about being a “nice guy” who never gets anything. Besides, that’s such a turn off.

Note: This blog was inspired by the recent posts of several blog buddies of mine: the cunning Catherine of Simply Solo’s post about dating games and “being too nice” in general: http://simplysolo.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/raul%e2%80%99s-briefly-back-%e2%80%a6-and-a-dating-victory/; and the beautiful Beth of Midwestern Gal Dating‘s recent post about dating dos and don’ts: http://midwesterngirldating.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/what-have-i-learned-about-dating/

I commented on both posts if you want to know more about how I feel about this topic. Also, I’ve written about this before…several times. Here are the links if you want to check it out:

https://crystalspins.com/2010/02/06/when-in-doubt-chase-the-girl-2/
https://crystalspins.com/2008/11/14/the-thrill-of-the-chase/
https://crystalspins.com/2006/12/04/how-to-woo-a-woman/

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68 Comments leave one →
  1. August 30, 2010 10:43 am

    Oh my, yessss! I always go for difficult men (some of them assholes) but I know exactly why I’m attracted to them- because they’re a challenge! I want a man that’s going to stand up to me, that’s my equal, that won’t put me on a pedestal.

    Having said that, in my experience, I’ve been hurt the most by ‘the nice guy’, the one you didn’t expect it from.

    Like

  2. August 30, 2010 10:50 am

    I don’t believe girls like assholes, but I think assholes are good at making girls think that assholes are the best they deserve. I would much rather raise a girl up and have her leave me then to tear her down so that she will stay. It’s just an observation, but it seems to hold water. A guy doesn’t have to treat a girl like a princess, but they definitely shouldn’t chip away at her self-esteem either, like I see far too often.

    Like

    • August 30, 2010 11:47 am

      That’s a good point. A lot of men are manipulative and they will purposely break down a girl in order to keep her submissive. In those cases the woman needs the support of her friends and to realize what is going on in order to get out of such a situation. And maybe a good man to let her know he sees what is going on.

      I do want to be loved and adored. But I don’t need a pedestal. I want an equal and I intend to love and adore whomever I end up with — that’s fair, right?

      Like

      • August 30, 2010 12:10 pm

        As a man it just seems like a fine line to toe: partly nice and partly an asshole

        Like

        • August 30, 2010 12:16 pm

          I don’t think most women want “assholes” at all. I don’t get where that idea comes from other than simply the perception of the men who weren’t chosen.

          Like

      • August 30, 2010 12:29 pm

        I doubt women want to date jerks, but a lot of women I know complain about how “they always end up with jerks”. And to be honest, I have no idea what it means to be neither a nice guy nor an asshole. To me it’s pretty black and white and all women want is a million shades of grey.

        Like

        • August 30, 2010 12:37 pm

          Well, first of all those terms alone are very subjective. Leading to less than concrete ideas. I would be interested in the specifics of the situations that led the women you mention to complain that they “always end up with jerks.” A woman who says that needs to consider the fact that the one thing all the “jerks” she’s dated have in common is her. She is obviously choosing them for some reason. A lack of self-worth that leads her to men who treat her the way she thinks she deserves to be treated perhaps. Or maybe a destructive penchant for drama.

          Don’t get me wrong, my urging to men to step up is balanced by a belief that women need to purge their lives from destructive people and habits as well.

          (I’m currently working on my destructive health habits.)

          Like

      • Jerrod permalink
        August 30, 2010 12:37 pm

        I don’t think women want part nice, part asshole. I think what many of these “assholes” have that “nice guys” don’t, is confidence and maybe a little more ego. Women don’t want a pushover nice guy. It’s just really not fun. They want a man for all that a man is supposed to be. Men that know who they are and stick up for themselves, not a pussy that does everything she wants just to try to make her happy.

        Like

        • August 30, 2010 12:41 pm

          Yes, yes, YES! oh GOD yes — that’s the spot. Right there. Right there, Jerrod. You got it!

          (he, he, he)

          Like

      • August 30, 2010 12:57 pm

        It sounds too much like you are asking guys to change who they are to suit women. I’d never ask a woman to change who she is on my account. I say be whoever you are to the fullest, whether a nice guy or not. Because what’s the point of finding someone you love if you can’t even be yourself.

        Like

        • August 30, 2010 1:14 pm

          Just so you know, that sounds like a “nice guy’s” frightened (or lazy) cop out to me.

          I’m not suggesting a fundamental change in who a person is. Be yourself, fine. But be a grown up. Decide what you want and pursue it. Simple. If that’s not “being yourself” then you don’t deserve a woman and you should be single. If you don’t want to do the swimming then enjoy sinking.

          (By “you” I mean a collective “you” to suggest all people in a group or even all of humanity — not specifically you, Nathan.)

          Like

      • August 30, 2010 1:45 pm

        To me it sounds like a lazy cop out on your side. Basically you want guys to do all the work and you can sit back and collect applications. It takes two to tango. When I find someone I am interested in I “pursue it” , but women have to realize that they have to give back signals at the very least. The man is the one putting himself out there.

        Like

        • August 30, 2010 2:01 pm

          Holy stupid assumption, Batman.

          I’m not lazy, I’m not coping out in anyway. I wrote an entire blog about and I have been vigilant about telling men how it is. Plus, and I’m not currently collecting applications. And I didn’t suggest for a moment that women shouldn’t be clear about what they want — or don’t want. That’s right ladies, if you don’t want a guy let him know. Don’t “try to be nice” and wind up being unclear. Just tell him, “No, thank you.”

          And Nathan, while it may take two to tango, someone has to lead or you don’t go anywhere.

          If you pursue a girl when you like her than good. You are probably a truly nice man and not just a self-labeled “nice guy.” But don’t fool yourself, when a woman says yes to a date, she’s putting herself out there too.

          Like

    • August 30, 2010 2:38 pm

      “But don’t fool yourself, when a woman says yes to a date, she’s putting herself out there too.”

      I agree, they are putting themselves out there. Only it’s after the fact. The man puts his head in the chopping block, and then it’s the woman’s choice to give a thumbs up or thumbs down. If you expect that kind of commitment from a man, you should expect it of yourself too.

      Like

  3. August 30, 2010 10:52 am

    –“Nice guys” are pansies.–

    Agreed, with this entire post. In fact, the next time I have a guy friend complaining about how nice guys finish last, I’m going to send them straight to your blog. You’ll set them right.

    It’s about time guys stop using this “nice guy” persona as a crutch for why they don’t succeed with women. Man the hell up. Go big or go home. And if you aren’t going to do anything about it? Stop talking. 🙂

    Like

    • August 30, 2010 12:43 pm

      I look forward to educating the masses. I think you’re right. I should write a book on this subject.

      Like

  4. Jerrod permalink
    August 30, 2010 11:01 am

    You know, I used to be one of those guys. And sometimes that mentality will try to sneak back in. But you are totally right, they are too lazy or scared to try for anything so they blame it on the “nice guys finish last” thing. All I have to say to these guys and my former self is, “MAN UP!”. 🙂

    Like

  5. Kris Frisk permalink
    August 30, 2010 11:04 am

    Nut up! I love it!

    Like

  6. wateversuls permalink
    August 30, 2010 2:08 pm

    Most dumb blog ever!!

    Like

    • August 30, 2010 2:10 pm

      Most dumb comment ever!!

      You must be one of the aforementioned wussy men. I’m sorry if I offended your delicate, feminine sensibilities.

      Grow a pair.

      Like

      • September 1, 2010 12:56 pm

        Im not sure this one is in need of a pair, more like an english lesson – & possibly a bit less free time 😉

        Like

  7. August 30, 2010 3:08 pm

    I’ve sometimes classified myself as a “nice guy”, but I like your post – if I end up getting nowhere with women I’d much rather look to modify my approach and take control of my own fate, rather than throwing my hands up and blaming women or the universe. Self-empowerment feels much better than self-pity.

    Like

    • August 30, 2010 3:17 pm

      Yes…be empowered. Chase the girl. Of course, don’t chase her until she slaps a restraining order on you.

      Like

  8. August 30, 2010 6:20 pm

    Going to have to respectfully disagree.

    Like

  9. August 31, 2010 6:19 am

    HA! This is rather interesting….it is ALWAYS said that the nice guy finishes last, and I so like nice guys *I really do* and I SO wish that they were more aggressive and stood up for liking me! Who wants to know that the guy you always liked secretly, but never said anything because he is the man and supposed to approach you so you don’t look like an overly aggressive woman, likes you as well and 3 years down the road when you already are in a relationship and he finally got the nerve to approach you! WHAT?!? TOO LATE BUDDY! That is what made me not give you the ‘bashful eyes’ in the first place, you…are….too…s..l…o…w! HA! Good read!

    http://www.happinesswhatsittoyou.wordpress.com

    Like

    • Kent permalink
      September 1, 2010 1:13 am

      Interesting, so it’s the guys fault for not approaching the woman. I think in this day and age that is a crock, also I am a nice guy but that is not the only aspect of my personality, so there are times when I am not so “nice”. Your blog entry assumes that it is all up to the man. I think that if a “woman ” likes a man she has just as much onus to approach him or you are assuming women are inferior. I do like your entry though you’re quite a good writer. The only problem is you put it all on the man and to that I say Good Luck!! I hope the guy you like approaches you because obviously you feel you shouldn’t have to take any responsibility in relation to starting a relationship.

      Like

      • January 20, 2011 9:26 pm

        Actually, although male psychology and female psychology as a whole are very different and generalizations can be made (one of which is that relationships fare better if the man intiates them — check out some Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus books), I think everyone should pursue what they want in life in a straight forward and open way. Not just men, not just women and not just in relationships. Furthermore, my largest point with this topic is that if a person doesn’t take action on his (or her) own behalf then he (or she) only has himself (or herself) to blame for things not working out. Anything else is a defeatist victim mentality and will only purpetuate failure. And annoy the crap out of me.

        Thank you for the compliment on my writing. And thank you so much for reading and commenting.

        Like

  10. August 31, 2010 9:21 am

    (I swore I commented here yesterday… but apparently I just dreamt it… sorry).

    I have had my fair share of “nice guys” but the problems is that I end up trompling them because I have a very strong forward personality. They need to be able to stand up to me and for themselves. Besides if they wont stand up for themselves, how can they possibly stand up for me when the chips are down?

    I dont want an asshole, but I want a guy who can handle me. Who can put me in my place when needed.

    Thanks for the link back, Doll Face!

    Like

    • August 31, 2010 9:28 am

      I have the same issue and I don’t know if I could put it any better myself. I need a fella who can handle himself if he is ever going to have a chance at handling me. I’ve said it before, I’m high-maintenance. But I’m high performance.

      Like

  11. August 31, 2010 11:16 am

    I find it funny that all the women are agreeing with you, and your only naysayers are (what appears to be) men.

    Like

    • Kent permalink
      September 1, 2010 1:17 am

      of course all the women agree, they don’t have to take responsibility if it is all up to the man.

      Like

      • September 1, 2010 10:11 am

        She’s not putting all the responsibility on men. She’s simply saying that if a guy likes a girl, he shouldn’t make excuses for himself not to tell her or pursue her (e.g. the excuse that he’s a “nice guy”). From what I’m reading, these are the type of guys that are afraid of rejection, so they either sabotage themselves or use a defense mechanism (rationalization) because they can’t deal with said rejection. And for the record, women do this too. In fact, people do this in all facets of life; they create excuses for themselves or backwards rationalize. I think what Cristy is trying to say is that these men in particular need to take ownership and stop blaming their failure and lack of risk-taking on others (like “women who date assholes”). You should never judge your success off the actions of anyone but yourself.

        Like

        • September 1, 2010 10:22 am

          Why thank you, I now have a platonic, cyber-crush on you Rachel! I always love it when someone gets me. 😉

          Like

  12. sayitinasong permalink
    August 31, 2010 3:21 pm

    Whoa… harsh words on nice guys…lol…I think i have come to that age where I would rather have a nice guy than deal with all the drama…

    Like

    • August 31, 2010 3:38 pm

      I don’t think people are getting that I am making a distinction between truly nice men and wimps who call themselves “nice guys.” I think all women want a truly nice man.

      Like

  13. September 1, 2010 1:48 am

    Three thoughts (though based on the previous comment discussions I fully expect to be written off & told to have fun drowning for not completely agreeing with every word):

    One – while I do see your claims of distinction between “truly nice men & wimps who call themselves ‘nice guys,'” it’s awfully shortsighted & terribly overly-simplistic (while still managing to be unnecessarily confusing) to suggest men are either assholes, truly nice, or pansified wimps who hide behind being “nice.” If you don’t like pansies or wimps – which appears to be fairly clear – call them out. Call them incompetent & proclaim your indifference to their obviously self-created unhappiness, but don’t mix in an excuse used by some of being nice & then devote an entire post to lambasting any guy who commits the dire sin of referring to himself as such.

    Two – your reference to “the guys who — through inaction, indecision or incompetence — manage to finish last” seems a trifle short, though later you do round it out by clarifying that “[t]he truth is, you’re scared. Or you’re lazy.” While I wouldn’t exactly recommend anyone – male or female – live their life based on fear, suggesting that someone who doesn’t do something because of a fear is nothing more than a castrated, thumb-sucking, crying waste of life who doesn’t deserve anything he/she desires not only is strikingly closed-minded, it’s just downright mean, to say nothing of inaccurate. Fear can manifest in anyone for any number of reasons, & it seems awfully presumptuous to assume if someone doesn’t act on something because of a fear you deem unwarranted that person is a petulant child – awfully nice use of the word though 🙂

    And three – your oft-used illustration of why men need to nut up or give up – “the evolutionary process of the universe: you know survival of the fittest. The fastest, strongest, most aggressive one wins” – is being misused. The term fittest in evolutionary biology refers only to how well an organism is suited to survive in its environment; it has nothing to do with being the fastest, strongest, or most aggressive. While it’s a slightly odd example (more relevant ones not currently being terribly forthcoming due to the hour & the ridonculous amount of hard labor I engaged in for most of today), it still makes my point: the dinosaurs. As a group, they were without a doubt the fastest, strongest, & most aggressive organisms on the planet at their time. That never changed. What changed was their level of fitness. Suddenly their world was best suited to the small, quick, & easily hidden animals, & there wasn’t anything they could do about it. As I said, I totally acknowledge that dinosaurs don’t have all that much in common with the topic at hand, but I bring them up to point out that “making it” doesn’t always have everything to do with being the toughest.

    I suppose overall the feeling I get from this pseudo-rant (not hatin’ on rants, I’m a firm fan myself) is one of one-sided intolerance towards a heavily-stereotyped group & lavish indifference bordering on contempt for those who are understandably upset about not getting what they desire while trying to find a reason. Your feelings & dislikes are yours of course, & I’m totally not attempting to suggest you’re in the wrong for feeling/having them. All I am suggesting is possibly striving for a bit more understanding towards people who for whatever reason feel slighted. Not for you to like them, just attempt a bit more either to understand, or acknowledge that we rarely can know the true reasons behind others’ fears, actions, & inactions. Of course it’s easier simply to throw people into stereotyped categories & assume they’re all the same idiots, but not terribly responsible.

    I do love discussing this kind of thing, but if your response is going to focus solely on pointing out how I’m just another blind sympathizer & to offer your best wishes on my clearly inevitable drowning, don’t bother. I mean, it’s your blog, & I wouldn’t presume to tell you not to respond in any way you see fit, but I can’t imagine it’d be a real useful use of your time. I know this is long, & I realize others have pointed out the silliness of all the males posting simply to disagree, but I can’t imagine you’d really respect me all that much for “being nice” (aka a thumb-sucking crybaby) & just hanging my head while muttering about you making me feel sad.

    Also, strangely enough, I was going throw a box of ridiculously random & old stuff earlier this evening & found prom photos! You look great 😉

    Like

    • September 1, 2010 9:05 am

      It’s a blog post, not a book. There’s no possible way to fully cover every tiny nuance of the topic in one post. And while I am truly weary of this at this point because so many of the men who read this post projected ideas into the post and onto me that were not included I will try to at least respond to each of your points.

      One — I tried to make it very clear that this issue does not apply to every man who is actually nice. Furthermore, just because you call yourself a nice guy does not mean you are in this group of men (or people in general) who need to just take a chance.

      Two — Some fears are valid. If a car is about to hit you you should be afraid. But sometimes you need to do things even though you are afraid. I was afraid to learn how to drive. I was afraid to go to college. I was afraid to ask the copy-man on a date but I did all of those things. Each time we bow to fear fear has a chance to control us.

      Three — It’s an analogous (or metaphorical, I don’t remember the difference off the top of my head at this hour and I don’t want to look it up) illustration using something that the average person understands on the level that the average person understands it in order to get the point across. I think it got the point across.

      Summary that didn’t have a point number — I have had a lot of male friends in my life who have been in a romantic or dating situation where they have complicated the issue to the point that they have wrapped it around their brain and crippled themselves. The point of this blog was to unravel that destructive web by simplifying — maybe even over simplifying — the situation.

      Despite the current lack of social rules surrounding the ritual of dating (in this day and age) it is a ritual and it is still a meaningful one. And the basic psychology of men and women (whether through conditioning or hard-wiring) still requires women to be much more subtle about things otherwise they are quickly considered desperate and it requires men to pursue a woman in order for her to feel truly valued in a relationship. Sure, you can start a relationship in many other ways, but in general a woman needs to be pursued (and will continued to need to be pursued) in order to feel valued and loved.

      And in general, men feel good when they pursue a woman and satisfy her need to be wanted.

      I’m sorry if this reply wasn’t as thorough as you might have wanted. At the moment I don’t have in in me to respond fully. Thank you for your long, thoughtful response. I kind of feel like I have said everything I have for now on this subject. And I don’t really want to get into a policy-style debate about this as though with you men picking apart my theory as if it were a piece of legislation I were trying to push through in the world court.

      To all you guys who disagree or where pissed off, do me (and maybe yourselves) a favor and just do some self-analysis. If this upset you, please, think about why. Is it because you’re really mad at yourself for making excuses instead of finding the strength to go through with pursuing the woman (or goal or item) you really wanted? Or is it because I have basically laid out the way it is and you aren’t ready to accept the truth yet — or you accept it and you’re still pissed about it? Or is it because you are a self-identified nice guy and you don’t like that I brazenly equated that term with the negative term pansy? Like I said, just because you think of yourself as a nice guy doesn’t mean you are a scared or lazy fella.

      And, if you are scared or you have been lazy it’s not like it’s all over for you. You can conquer your fear. You can get over that practice of inaction. You aren’t dead. There’s still time to chase the girl…the promotion…the goal, whatever goal it is. So, go do it. Ask for help if you need it. Hell, let me know what you’re working on and I’ll help if I can.

      Like

    • September 1, 2010 9:09 am

      Oh, and thank you for the compliment — I must admit, you looked very dashing yourself. I love it when a man can pull off a hat.

      Like

    • September 1, 2010 10:15 am

      “presumptuous to assume?”

      hehe

      Like

    • September 2, 2010 12:35 pm

      Well, I used to be an evolutionary biologist, so now I feel compelled to speak up….

      I see the point you’re trying to make with the dinosaur analogy. However, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that, in early humans, aggression and strength were two traits that were heavily selected for, both by the the environment and through sexual selection.

      So, Crystal makes a good point. Timid guys lose.

      Like

  14. Cole permalink
    September 2, 2010 2:43 am

    Blah, blah, blah. Very interesting, now go make me a sammich.

    (Be honest with yourself, that just turned you on.)

    Like

    • September 2, 2010 8:46 am

      So are you saying you’re TRYING to turn me on?

      Like

      • Cole permalink
        September 2, 2010 7:50 pm

        Blah, blah, blah…more analyzing…more being an asshole(still less sammiches…get on it…) and you still didn’t admit that it turns you on. Just admit it. That is easy.

        Like

  15. Old School permalink
    September 2, 2010 5:36 am

    A little thought experiment. Replace “nice guys” with “chubby girls” or “nice girls” where appropriate. Since I know for a fact you’d be up-in-arms about an article like this using the same tone and assumptions only directed towards chubby girls, why are you surprised that there are a lot of men up-in-arms about this article?

    Don’t get me wrong. I agree with a lot of the points of the article – but I think it applies to ANYONE who won’t put in the effort and the heart necessary to accomplish what they want in life. Then, they make excuses so they can live with themselves and complain about how the world isn’t fair. This isn’t about being a “nice guy”, it’s about being honest with yourself and having the guts and drive to accomplish what you set out to do.

    Like

  16. Keep Your Woman permalink
    December 21, 2010 8:36 am

    Late to the party, but why NOT leave a comment. You’re right here and there are so many people who just don’t get it. If a guy can’t stand up for himself and take the initiative, how in the HELL is he going to stand up FOR you when the time comes? If a guy disagree’s with you or is mad over this topic, he’s only validating your proof of him being a whiny girl.

    If a woman disagree’s and say’s she wants a “nice guy” she’s lying to herself. Yes, she’d like the respect and admiration, but the type of guy we are talking about here is going to leave her BORED to death, looking for a real man.

    Like

    • December 21, 2010 9:25 am

      I’m so happy to have agreement from another fella that I consider to be a real man.

      Like

  17. January 17, 2011 10:50 am

    Epic truth. From here on out, when a “nice guy” whines to me that “all women love assholes” I’m going to send them here. ♥ it- thank you!

    Like

    • January 17, 2011 11:21 am

      So happy to be of service! I definitely want this message spread far and wide. Although, as you can see if you read the comments, this was a controversial stance to take — especially among a lot of men.

      Like

      • John permalink
        January 24, 2011 8:17 pm

        Quite good writing and I agree with the gist of it about rationalisation. I must agree with the poster who mentioned chubby girls though. It seems it’s all A-OK to ridicule ‘nice guys’ and talk as you do about ‘real men’, but I’m sure many women would shout the term misogynist if a similar article was written in the same tone about women.

        One can be sensitive and fearful and still be a real man, even if it isn’t someone you’d be attracted to. I think it’s all very sexist myself.

        Anyway I always find it nice that at least women can espouse traditional gender roles without being labelled sexist.

        So, to retort, I’d say a real woman is one who is never aggressive, and stays nice and passive and conforms to traditional gender stereotypes to get a man. I’m sure you’d agree.

        BTW: I find it intriguing so many women fear that they require an assertive male to counter their propensity to ‘walk all over’ (‘ie treat badly) any man who allows it. What happened to just being a nice person without someone regulate your behaviour.

        Like

        • January 25, 2011 5:13 pm

          The rationalization message is the most important part of this post. Gender issues are rather moot beyond that. About a similar article being written about women, I would be interested in what points that might entail. Possibly something about female sexuality, nagging or being high-maintenance? I would argue that such ideals are only sexist or misogynist if they are blanketly applied to all women.

          Anyway, I’ve tried to reiterate this (it feels a millions times at this point): this passive victim mentality is not a uniquely male attribute. And I don’t think it’s a good attribute in a woman either. Although I do think it manifests itself in different ways in women than in men. So, I would say this is as much about being a man as it is about simply being human. However, I personally see this passive victim mentality primarily in men. Maybe I have just surrounded myself with women who are actively pursuing the things they want in life. Maybe my part of the country is having some shortage of men with ambitions that rouse them into action. I don’t know.

          As far as traditional gender roles…that isn’t what this post is about. There is nothing in here about a man’s place and a woman’s place in society. Although I have asked people for their opinions on these matters in recent blogs (https://crystalspins.com/2010/12/20/all-the-girly-men/, https://crystalspins.com/2010/12/21/your-liberation-as-a-man-depends-on-my-liberation-as-woman/). At the same time, making the point that women find men who have the stones to actually ask a girl on a date attractive seems like a worthwhile endeavor.

          About women fearing they will “walk all over” a fella…I can identify with this idea. But I’m more concerned with my fella thinking I always get my way or I’m a nag or something simply because he’s too timid to tell me what he really wants. Or he just decides he doesn’t care. In which case I might as well be single. There’s more to that. Maybe if the ladies could give examples of times they felt like they walked all over a fella you might understand it more completely. It can happen even when you are trying to be kind and thoughtful and aren’t carelessly treating the other person badly.

          Like

  18. John permalink
    January 26, 2011 4:32 pm

    I think apart from the wussy analysis, I think a lot of guys feel they can identify a player or a guy who doesn’t respect women very much better than the women who date these guys. It’s a valid frustration, even when clouded with envy.

    Although, while some guys may seem like assholes to onlookers, it may in fact be some kind of machismo BS act and in reality their actual partners may experience them as a doe-eyed obedient puppy when their mates aren’t around.

    Was it Joe Jackson who said ‘Is she really going out with him…’

    Like

    • January 26, 2011 4:39 pm

      Are you calling my analysis wussy? How dare you! 😉

      I see what you’re saying about men feeling like they can identify a ‘player’ better than the women involved. I can totally relate. A lot of women have similar feelings when we see good men acting like idiots for a pretty girl who is a b*#$%. And you make a very good point that the way things seem to onlookers might be the opposite of what is going on behind the scenes. Never can tell what’s going on in another person’s bedroom. (Unless you like in my apartment building, of course.)

      And yes, yes it was.

      Like

Trackbacks

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